Well let's say we put it this way. There is a reason for everything, right? If so, then that must put reason high and above everything else on the list then, right? So what else can we possibly conclude, except that reason is God? (or, the direct manifestation thereof).

Indeed, once we stray from reason, don't we we in fact find ourselves in error or, to put it more succinctly, "in sin?" Therefore, I would attest to you, that the Christian God -- if in fact He is omniscient -- is none other than the God of reason. And I would also attest, that this is the same God the Atheists worship, in their worship of Reason.

So tell me, what do you get when you hang reason up on the cross? ... "T-reason."

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Excerpt from the Internet Infidels Forums' thread, How To Arrive Rationally To God? ...

Sorry, I couldn't resist adding this one.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

No.
Unless you think that the universe is deterministic.

Do you believe in cause and effect? Indeed, for every effect there is a reason which, is the cause.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

In other worlds you think that universe is deterministic. right?

Well you can't change the past, and there can only be one future, so in that respect I would say yes. However, since both the past and the future are contingent upon what happens in the present, this is the only place we can truly exist ... in which respect neither the past nor the future exist. And if that's the case, then the whole thing is contingent upon free will.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Since this seems to be a common argument between Atheists and Theists, I've decided to start a new thread called, Determinism vs Free ... Feel free to continue posting here though if you like. Thanks!

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Well, how can you be sure that everything have a reason, if you can only see that after the fact. You can't predict all the things, the result of a some state of the universe can be anything.
And it doesn't matter what the result will be, you will be capable of using some argument to say that this was caused by that. But even if have the same situation again, you wont be able to predict anything.

There is no way do differentiate a universe where everything have a reason and one that don't.

Is reason just a human quality, seeing as how we're endowed with the ability to reason? Or, is it because humans are higher evolved that they're allowed to reason? Which is to say, has reason always existed? Does that make any sense? I know I keep hearing that reason is specific to human beings and doesn't exist elsewhere in the Universe. If so, then why?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

If you see reason as an ability to perform some logical thought, then I would say that is not only a human chacariteristic. Some animals can do some really amazing things.

A quote by Richard Dawkins from his book "River Out of Eden":Many people employ the use of faith to ground their religious convictions, however faith is the antithesis of reason. Hmmmm, what can one infer about that...

Well, if we appeal to Romans 1:20, it tells us the existence and nature of God is self-evident:The universe is indistinguishable from a universe driven by purely natural forces, and if the existence and nature of God is self-evident... hmmm
In that case, using faith (being the antithesis of reason) is an admission of being "in sin". Atheists, if they make use of reason, are therefore glorified by God.


Unfortunately, you are using the word "worship" in an unusual way. Most people accept that there is a difference between religious worship and the other connotation which is "appreciation". Atheists appreciate reason.

So why do we humans seem to have the proclivity to separate ourselves from nature? Is it because we have the capacity to reason?

It can be if it's not grounded in reason. One can still have faith and be grounded in reason at the same time.

That's a good one, I'm going to have to remember that.

I wouldn't go so far as to put it that way, however, I would say it's appropriate to begin with saying, "I don't know."

And yet would you say religious worship is nothing more than the appreciation of God? I would. In fact I don't think God is looking for suckups. In which case I would say what's the difference between appreciating God and appreciating Reason which, is a direct manifestion of God?

Hmm, now what was that verse from the Bible? "Those who are first shall be last, and those who are last shall be first?" Something to think about now isn't it?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

I don't follow this. If I need to go to the store to get some milk, the reason I'm going to the store is to get milk, but what caused me to go is running out of milk.

I don't understand this reason = cause claim.

Implying there was a reason behind the initial cause of the universe suggests an intelligence started the whole thing off. Who knows about that? But taking this and running with it, it would seem that everything right down to the very letters I'm mis-typing right now was planned from the start, which implies no free will.

And to my knowledge, I'm coming up with these words on my own. Then again, perhaps were all just puppets.

Well there's nothing that says you have to go to the store. But once you decide to do so, then that becomes the cause, the reason being you ran out of milk.

However, the only way it's possible to understand the Universe is through reason. How else could it come about then except through reason?

I don't think puppets would be allowed to reason about it. Do you?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

I think the universe can be understood through Intuition.

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Once you find your way, you're there.

Buddy, you and your shell games!

You are using at least two different definitions of the word "reason" and trying to create a nonexitant correlation between them. Let me illustrate:

"Well let's say we put it this way. There is a reason(cause) for everything, right? If so, then that must put reason(the process of applying logic) high and above everything else on the list then, right? So what else can we possibly conclude, except that reason(the process of applying logic) is God? (or, the direct manifestation thereof).

Indeed, once we stray from reason(the process of applying logic), don't we we in fact find ourselves in error or, to put it more succinctly, "in sin?" Therefore, I would attest to you, that the Christian God -- if in fact He is omniscient -- is none other than the God of reason(the process of applying logic). And I would also attest, that this is the same God the Atheists worship, in their worship of Reason(the process of applying logic)"

Without adressing the plethora of additional errors here, your very first assertion is inherently flawed, so the whole argument is without merit.

Most of your assertions about "absoluteness" are flawed in exactly the same way.

Except without the faculty of reason, how would we derive the reason for anything?

You know what they say, "One man's trash is another man's treasure," right? So, where one man reasons one way, and seems to derive a completely valid reason, another man may reason another, and derive a completely superfluous reason. Either way though, there's still a reason for everything. There's nothing "flawed" about that is there?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Yes, because you are still doing it:

"Except without the faculty of reason(ability to think logically), how would we derive the reason(cause) for anything?

You know what they say, "One man's trash is another man's treasure," right? So, where man reasons(use logic to arrive at a conclusion) one way, and seems to derive a completely valid reason, (motive for action), another man may reason(use logic to arrive at a conclusion) another, and derive a completely superfluous reason(motive for action). Either way though, there's still a reason(cause)for everything."


Despite the use of the same word in each of these three statements, they are themselves logically unconnected.

Actually here reason becomes the effect which is derived through the process.

And what's the difference between what the first man reasons about and the second man reasons about except the conclusion. Which, is what I've primarily stated above?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

While the thing is, who are we to judge which man is reasoning correctly? In other words, what may seem true to one man, may seem false to another. In which case reason can seem like an outright excuse or, a valid assessment, all depending on whose perspective you take.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?