Since this seems to be a common argument between Atheists and Theists, I've decided to post it here in the What is Atheism? category. From the thread, A Reason for Everything ...


Originally Posted by Iacchus32 ...

Well let's say we put it this way. There is a reason for everything, right?

Do you believe in cause and effect? Indeed, for every effect there is a reason which, is the cause.

Well you can't change the past, and there can only be one future, so in that respect I would say yes. However, since both the past and the future are contingent upon what happens in the present, this is the only place we can truly exist ... in which respect neither the past nor the future exist. And if that's the case, then the whole thing is contingent upon free will.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

How exactly can you conciliate free will with a deterministic universe?

How can you have something, unless it were relative to nothing? ... black, unless it were relative to white? ... hot, unless it were relative to cold? In other words there must be a temporate range or, happy medium between the extremes, otherwise existence would not be possible.

And do you know what else? The whole Universe vibrates ... Which, is how everything comes into being.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Actualy black and white have the same spectrum.
So, they are basicaly the same thing.
The fact that water can be in the solid state or liquid or gas, doesn't meant that a specific amount of water have to in those 3 states at the same time.
Or we are in a deterministc universe or we are not.

What do you mean by the universe vibrating?String theory?

Hey, I'm free to reply to this thread. There's nothing that says I have to.

Everything oscillates between the two potentials or extremes. While here everything has its own frequency or wavelength. Which, is the same notion behind the Yin and Yang by the way.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

From Wikipedia - Compatibilism:

Why?
There are some effects which occur that have no immediate cause (radioactive decay for example).


My thoughts on Freewill:

I like Hume's Compatibilism (see excerpt in above post).

I've read a few of the neurology reviews indicating choices are determined before they are consciously recognized (such as humans perform actions before they are consciously aware of their actions), but there is still some unresolved inconsistancy...

I've often brought up the point that the systems involved in Cognition and the systems involved in Physics are not comparable.

Decisional free will and scientific determinism co-exist because they are at different levels of discourse - in this case, neurology (metaphysics) and psychology (epistemology). Free will expresses how we operate at the personal level, and determinism explains how our brain works at the base physical level.

With the above differenciation, you can logically suggest "Voluntary Movements" are in fact "voluntary", the recongition of your own existence becomes coherent to consider, and the concept of freewill becomes logically harmonious scientific determinism.

Hi Yahweh, Welcome aboard! And nice avatar!

Yeah, I think compatibilism is the best way of describing it, for indeed, we're all bound by restrictions and limitations (in that sense determinism) and yet, if we don't choose to act responsibly, we find ourselves with even more restrictions and limititations ... and possibly wind up in jail? So in that respect I think the choice (and hence free will) involves choosing responsibly or, wisely.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

You can'T choose in a deterministic universe. There is nothing you can do about it. Whatever you did or will do is just the result of the state of the universe. You choose nothing, it is already decided when someone put the universe together.


Yahweh What he did is just change the definition of free will.
From here

So, does that mean it doesn't exist then? Because I feel like I have to make choices all the time. And there's nothing automatic about it -- which, it would be if there was no choice -- to say the least.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

No. that means that the universe is not deterministic.

What are you frowning for? Because this is what I've pretty much maintained all along, that free will does exist. However, I will concede to what Yaweh was saying, and say it exists in accord with compatibilism, because we can't have total free will, not without total chaos that is. In which case you have those things which tend to be binding and, those things which tend to loosen.

Obviously you don't have free will if you're wrapped in the coils of a snake and are about to wind up its belly. Do you think most people would honestly choose to have that happen?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Hmmm...

Free-will is not the same as Free-action, therefore being wrapped in the coils of a snake to does negate free-will.

It severely restricts it though wouldn't you say? Whereas once he's made dinner out of you that's the end of it!

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

It absolutely does not restrict free will, if such a thing exists. We speak quite often of things happening "against our will". Yahweh is quite correct; free action is being restricted, but not free will.

If such a thing exists? ...

Sorry, if something goes against my will, and I have no recourse, then it is a restriction upon my will. Yes, and when the restrictions mount up until you're finally dead, then there is no will.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Why do you say this?

If the universe is not deterministic must there not be more than one future?

I guess you can say the potential exists for anything to happen (although some things more than others ), however, once it's happened it becomes part of the past and the past can't be changed, so in that sense there can only be one future as well.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Only if the universe IS deterministic. That's what confuses me, since I thought you were the one arguing against determinism.

In a deterministic universe, you are right. Since there is only one past and since the future is determined by the past, there can be only one future.

But if the universe is not deterministic, then the singular past does not imply a singular future.

As long as there is more than one potential future, there is more than one future, for the future is nothing but potential. Once it happens, and only one of those potentials is realized, then it is not the future anymore. It is the past.


If free will is a reality, even a limited reality, the universe cannot be deterministic and the future cannot be singular.

No, the future is not determined by the past, for both the past and the future are determined by the present, and in the present exists nothing but potentential. And here the past remains fixed, the future remains unfixed, and the present is our moment of truth so to speak ... in other words reality. Actually it's very much like this matter of dualism you were referring to in the other thread, where the only thing that's real is the temperance which exists in the middle.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?