> Science vs Religion > Evolution vs Creationism
  #41  
Old 01-24-2005, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epiphany
How can the universe be measured in years, when years and time, as we know and understand it, are a function of this solar system only? Time, as we know it, becomes completely convoluted and irrelevant when applied to anything outside of this solar system.

The standard second is measured by the Cesium 133 clock which is how long it takes the atom to get from one point to the other. 20 billion years ago with respect to a non moving observer, or with the speed of light.
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  #42  
Old 01-24-2005, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Andromeda
Well, to begin, science has proved that the universe had a beginning. ("Singularity", "Second Law of Thermodynamics", etc.) Science, furthermore, proves that something so immensely complex as the universe could not have possibly come into being by chance. I quote Dr. James Coppedge, an expert on the science of statistical probability....


What's more, the science of statistical probability proves that forming even a protein molecule via random processes is not only improbable; it is indeed impossible. There is, however, one other possibility.

One chance is all you need. If there wasn't, we wouldn't be here. It's the anthropic principle, and a protein is just more proof of that.
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  #43  
Old 01-24-2005, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Protos
One chance is all you need. If there wasn't, we wouldn't be here. It's the anthropic principle, and a protein is just more proof of that.
I started a thread at Internet Infidels forum called, Are We Here by Chance? if anyone's interested. It's a spin off from the What is Certainty? thread here.

Oh, greetings Protos, and welcome aboard!
__________________
So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?
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  #44  
Old 01-24-2005, 06:12 AM
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Let's see:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda

Evidence from space:
  1. The shrinking sun limits the earth/sun relationship to less than "billions of years". The sun is losing both mass and diameter. Changing the mass would upset the fine gravitational balance that keeps the earth at just the right distance for life to survive.

The Sun is a star that would eventually become a white dwarf. The Chandrasekhar limit is requires about 1.5 times the mass of the sun so that it would collapse under its own weight to become a black hole. Our sun is app. 5billion years old making it a second generation star.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda

  • The 0.5 inch layer of cosmic dust on the moon indicates the moon has not been accumulating dust for billions of years.


    Lyttleton felt that the X-rays and UV light striking exposed moon rocks "could, during the age of the moon be sufficient to form a layer over it several miles deep." - Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society of London, vol. 115, pp. 585-604

  • X-rays and Ultraviolet light aren't matter.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • The existence of short-period comets indicates the universe is less than billions of years old.

  • There is a gas cloud out of which commets spawn in the Milky way. Commets may be much younger than billions of years, but they are not evidence that the universe isn't.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • Fossil meteorites are very rare in layers other than the top layers of the earth. This indicates that the layers were not exposed for millions of years as is currently being taught in school textbooks.

  • The Earth is one of the terran planets that has tectonic plate movement, aka earthquakes. Pressure, temperature, and time can change any fossil below the top layers.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • The moon is receding a few inches each year. Billions of years ago the moon would have been so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents.

  • The orbit of the moon as in all other planets in the Solar System are elliptical, not circular. This means that the moon may recede some years and come close others, just like Mars came close last year. Also the moon may have been the result of a titanic body colliding with the young Earth some 3 billion years ago causing excess rock and a piece of the planetoid itself to form it.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • The moon contains considerable quantities of U-236 and Th-230, both short-lived isotopes that would have been long gone if the moon were billions of years old.

  • U-236 and Th-230 aren't that short lived. That's how the A-bomb was made.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • The existence of great quantities of space dust, which by the Pointing-Robertson effect would have been vacuumed out of our solar system in a few thousand years, indicates the solar system is young.

  • Space dust can come from anything, including an outer source, or the Sun itself.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • At the rate many star clusters are expanding, they could not have been traveling for billions of years.

  • There are hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars each.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • Saturn's rings are still unstable, indicating they are not billions of years old.

  • rock fragments orbit around planets just like moons do, the orbits are perfectly stable.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • Jupiter and Saturn are cooling off rather rapidly. They are losing heat twice as fast as they gain it from the sun. They cannot be billions of years old. Jupiter's moon, Io, is losing matter to Jupiter. It cannot be billions of years old.

  • Are they supposed to be hot? It's pretty far away from the Sun. Io could have been much bigger assuming it's losing matter at a geometrical/exponential rate as you suggest.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • Among other factors to consider is that all the ancient astronomers from 2000 years ago recorded that Sirius was a red star - today it is a white dwarf star. Since today's textbooks in astronomy state that one hundred thousand years are required for a star to "evolve" from a red giant to a white dwarf, obviously this view needs to be restudied.

  • it could have been a red star for 98000 years.

    Evidence from earth:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [list=A][*]The decaying magnetic field limits earth's age to less than billions.

    The magnetic field of the Earth, which is caused by the rotation of the magnetic components Iron, cobalt and nickel in the Earth's outer liquid core has been around for as long as the Earth has had an outer core. That's the reason there's an Aurora Borealis which is iron dust particles colliding and heating up with each other.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The volume of lava on earth divided by its rate of efflux gives a number of only a few million years, not billions. I believe that during the Flood, while "the fountains of the deep were broken up", most of the earth's lava was deposited rapidly.

    The Earth's crust is cooled lava. The crust at the top of the mantle melts at convergent boundaries causes it to either go up (mountains) or down (volcanoes). There are hot spots, such as the Hawaiian volcano (a shield volcano), which is where the volcano continues to spew out material even though it's in the middle of a tectonic plate, and when the plate moves, the island chains form (like Hawaii).
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      #45  
    Old 01-24-2005, 06:13 AM
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    Thanx Iaachus

    -----------------------------------------
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]Dividing the amount of various minerals in the ocean by their influx rate indicates only a few thousand years of accumulation.

    Minerals are types of rocks that have a shape ex: crystalline, cubic etc.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The amount of Helium 4 in the atmosphere, divided by the formation rate on earth, gives only 175,000 years. (God may have created the earth with some helium which would reduce the age more.)

    Helium 4 is easily heated and can escape the exosphere very easily.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The erosion rate of the continents is such that they would erode to sea level in less than 14,000,000 years, destroying all old fossils.

    Have you ever heard of depositing of sediments?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]Topsoil formation rates indicate only a few thousand years of formation.

    The top of the crust is the youngest since that is where the newest lava goes. You should expect to find the oldest crust near the middle of tectonic plates since that's where the layers of Earth go out from the source: volcano.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]Niagara Falls' erosion rate (four to five feet per year) indicates an age of less than 10,000 years. Don't forget Noah's Flood could have eroded half of the seven-mile-long Niagara River gorge in a few hours as the flood waters raced through the soft sediments.

    Erosion leads to Depositing. Noah's Flood didn't exist.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The rock encasing oil deposits could not withstand the pressure for more than a few thousand years.

    Oil deposits are not that deep in the crust. The crust is app. 32km deep. Rocks withstand any kind of pressure.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The size of the Mississippi River delta, divided by the rate mud is being deposited, gives an age of less than 30,000 years. (The Flood in Noah's day could have washed out 80% of the mud there in a few hours or days, so 4400 years is a reasonable age for the delta.)

    Climate changes bring on changes in the environment.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The slowing spin of the earth limits its age to less than the "billions of years" called for by the theory of evolution.

    The spin of the Earth has always been the same. That's the reason the solar calendar has endured so long.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]A relatively small amount of sediment is now on the ocean floor, indicating only a few thousand years of accumulation. This embarrassing fact is one of the reasons why the continental drift theory is vehemently defended by those who worship evolution.

    Sea floor spreading rate varies. Also the much of it is absorbed into the mantle.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The largest stalactites and flowstone formations in the world could have easily formed in about 4400 years.

    Maybe.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The Sahara desert is expanding. It easily could have been formed in a few thousand years. See any earth science textbook.

    There was no desert before 3000BC, since there have been found rock cave paintings in the middle of it dating back to 5000BC (yah i said it). The desert is due to a climate shift.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]The oceans are getting saltier. If they were billions of years old, they would be much saltier than they are now.

    What?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    [*]Ice cores at the south pole and Greenland have a maximum depth of 10-14,000 feet. The aircraft that crash-landed in Greenland in 1942 and excavated in 1990 were under 263 feet of ice after only 48 years. This indicates all of the ice could have accumulated in 4400 years.[/list]

    The last ice age was 10,000 years ago. We are in the middle of the brief period between that one and the next one. The Earth's climate is constantly getting warmer.
    Evidence from Biology:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    1. The current population of earth (5.5 billion souls) could easily be generated from eight people (survivors of the Flood) in less than 4000 years.

    The best possible combination for this is 6men and 2 women producing a maximum of 120 children. Aside from the genetics involved in this highly unlikely.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • The oldest living coral reef is less than 4200 years old.

  • It would be highly unlikely for a coral reef to form during an Ice age app.10000BC.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • The oldest living tree in the world is about 4300 years old.

  • trees die.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • Another factor to consider: The genetic load in man is increasing. Geneticists have cataloged nearly 1300 genetic disorders in the human race. It is certainly reasonable to believe that the human race was created perfect from the hand of the Creator but has been going downhill as a result of our disobedience to the laws established by the Creator and the increased radiation from the sun. The Bible teaches that we live in a sin-cursed world as a result of Adam's sin.

  • The more people the more documented diseases. If a disease occurs 1/100000, it certainly wouldn't occur as much back when the total population was less than 1/4 of a billion.
    Evidence from History:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
    1. The oldest known historical records are less than 6000 years old.

    Writing was developed some 8000 years ago.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Andromeda
  • Many ancient cultures have stories of an original creation in the recent past and a worldwide Flood. Nearly 300 of these Flood legends are now known.

  • Myths are common. I suppose you also believe the story about the 12 Greek gods too. I thought you were monotheistic?
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      #46  
    Old 01-28-2005, 04:47 PM
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Protos
    The standard second is measured by the Cesium 133 clock which is how long it takes the atom to get from one point to the other. 20 billion years ago with respect to a non moving observer, or with the speed of light.
    Thank you very much for the explanation Protos. However, because time is a dimension, whenever I ponder it in depth, it always becomes strangely obscure...a bit mind boggling in certain respects I suppose, regardless of what is known about it. I believe it still holds many mysteries.

    Here are a couple of articles on time which I think are interesting:

    Time Is Not A Dimension
    Time and Universe

    Last edited by Epiphany : 01-28-2005 at 05:16 PM.
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