> Science vs Religion > What is Atheism?
  #1  
Old 07-15-2004, 11:05 AM
Default Seriously Folks

You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke!

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes!
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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2004, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus32
You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning ...[snip]
Please point to someplace where someone claimed no "true meaning".

Which sense of "meaning" do you intend to use? "True meaning" implies some sort of platonic ideal or ultimate causation...but the conclusion of your sentence ("otherwise, how could these very words appear before you?") seems to imply a much narrower definition of "meaning", closer to a practical definition than to a philosophical axiom. Or do you intend to conflate the two? I hope not, because that would be dishonest.

BTW, in terms of the first definition, I would say that the world has no true meaning, and that in fact the notion of a "true meaning" for the world is ludicrous and nonsensical. For the second definition, the very fact that you understand these words indicates that our practical agreement (implicit, among speakers of a given language) is more than enough "meaning" to account for communication.
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  #3  
Old 07-17-2004, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Digital Cuttlefish
Please point to someplace where someone claimed no "true meaning".
This is a notion most Atheists tend to adhere to, based upon the notion that there was nothing before the Big Bang, thus making it possible to eliminate the need for a Creator who, instills the Universe with an ultimate purpose. In other words there can be no true meaning (other than what we make of it, if that means anything?) because we are strictly here by chance.

So, in order to maintain such a fallacy, it's important to stray away from any notions of absoluteness, which discounts any possibility of chance, and suggests the Universe has always been here in some form or another. In other words change is not possible outside of the realm of the absolute, which is God in other words.

Quote:
Which sense of "meaning" do you intend to use? "True meaning" implies some sort of platonic ideal or ultimate causation...but the conclusion of your sentence ("otherwise, how could these very words appear before you?") seems to imply a much narrower definition of "meaning", closer to a practical definition than to a philosophical axiom.
I'm referring to meaning in the absolute sense, based upon the absoluteness of reality which, of course Plato's ideals must be based upon. Whereby I bring up the notion of the words on the computer screen. While here is what I posted on a different forum ...

"So, what does it mean to anyone if something is staring you in the face? That it doesn't exist? Certainly at the very least, this is not what it means."

Quote:
Or do you intend to conflate the two? I hope not, because that would be dishonest.
Except that you put the same twist on reality as the Atheists do above. Either Plato's are based upon the absoluteness of reality (which does exist) or they're not. If not, then why bother to make such a proclamation?

Quote:
BTW, in terms of the first definition, I would say that the world has no true meaning, and that in fact the notion of a "true meaning" for the world is ludicrous and nonsensical. For the second definition, the very fact that you understand these words indicates that our practical agreement (implicit, among speakers of a given language) is more than enough "meaning" to account for communication.
Except by stating this you establish no basis by which meaning can exist. It has to find common ground in something, that is, based upon an absolute. Otherwise it would be like dust blowing in the wind.
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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?
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  #4  
Old 07-17-2004, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Iacchus32

Except by stating this you establish no basis by which meaning can exist. It has to find common ground in something, that is, based upon an absolute. Otherwise it would be like dust blowing in the wind.
Why do I need a basis by which it can exist? You do not like it because you prefer to phrase your questions in a manner which presupposes the answer you want to hear.

You want common ground on something based on an absolute. I don't think that is possible. You say that there absolutely must be ultimate meaning. Even if I say that there need not be, and make no claim that there absolutely is not any, there is still no room for compromise.

Dust blowing in the wind exists...whether it has meaning or not. I suggest that it need not have meaning. Not that it absolutely does not, nor that it absolutely does. I am willing to be convinced. Currently...I see no evidence at all for any ultimate meaning, not for dust, not for people, not for the universe.
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  #5  
Old 07-18-2004, 08:25 AM
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It's all matter of cause-and-effect really, in relation to the absolute grounds of existence. And meaning is just the observance of all the relationships that act in accord with it, whether implied or otherwise.
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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?
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  #6  
Old 07-18-2004, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus32
It's all matter of cause-and-effect really, in relation to the absolute grounds of existence. And meaning is just the observance of all the relationships that act in accord with it, whether implied or otherwise.
Oh...so this is a third definition of meaning, so broad as to be meaninginless. Something is, and that is its meaning?
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