From the JREF Forums thread, Your thoughts on atheism ...

My thoughts on Atheism? Atheism is just a set of beliefs, just like any other religious set of beliefs.

No need to, have already established that man is a creature of belief. You know, where does the belief of this real world go when we die? Certainly, according to you, we are no longer capable of believing that we were here, right? Anyway, so much for the idea of having the whole thing etched in concrete, because it isn't any more concrete than the notion of God ... when we die that is. So really, what it all boils down to is what we believe will happen after we die.

And yet what is a religion, except a certain set of precepts or beliefs? Buddhism is a religion isn't it? And yet it doesn't outright proclaim the notion of God does it? So, to insist that Atheism, in its lack of belief, is not religious in any way whatsoever, is bogus. Because we have to believe in something.

Are you saying that you don't believe the real world is all that we have? That certainly sounds like a set of beliefs if you ask me. And, since when is Science capable of defining anything with 100% accuracy? Why is the theory of evolution still a theory? Why will it always remain a theory?

So much for what we believe in this world, right?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Did you ever answer his question?

In a roundabout way, yes.

I mean what else do you expect me to say here?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

I suppose it should not surprise me that we differ in our opinion of what constitutes an answer.Expect? Sadly, I don't think I would expect any better. Hope? I would have hoped you would have the courtesy to give an answer. A real answer.

Yes, and what purpose would an answer serve if it wasn't self-evident?

A real answer? In terms of what, the absoluteness of reality? Well, I'm afraid you Atheists and Agnostics don't believe in such things. So, try barking up another tree.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Look, you made a claim, then failed to back it up. If you had any honor, you would either answer completely or admit your failure. But it appears you have none, so you twist a simple request into something like this:That's right, it is the fault of Atheists that you, Iacchus, will not provide a list of what constitutes this "set of beliefs" you claim that atheists share. You cannot admit that you were speaking out of ignorance, when it is clear to one and all that such was the case. You could have gained a modicum of respect by admitting it, but you chose to play your silly games. Deplorable.

No, the problem is that people are in denial. For by acknowledging the fact that man is nothing but a creature of faith, they have to own up to the even greater possibility that God truly does exist.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

"Acknowledging the fact"? See, this is what I was speaking of the other day with Human. This is not the advancing of a tentative philosophy, this is a clear statement of fact. As such, it should be subject to critical scrutiny. Please, Iacchus, be so good at to tell us the evidence by which you make this claim.

Ok, we'll take the shortcut, avoiding your reply which will consist only of vague, meaningless distracting questions, and cut to the chase: There is no such evidence.

I am, as always, willing to be proven wrong. Please do so, by providing evidence to support your claim. (Oh, and for the record, this is actually a question which has been empirically examined, such that if you know where to look, you can actually find empirical evidence which addresses your claim! I will not spoil your surprise and tell you how it turns out, though...you have already claimed to know, so I am certain you must already be familiar with the evidence...)

Of course if you understood that absolutes do exist and, that our interpretations of these absolutes are merely relative, you would also understand that this relativity is what constitutes faith and, our belief in these absolutes.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

If our interpretations are relative, and we have no direct experience of absolute, how is it that you can make the claim that absolutes exist? You contradict youself within one sentence! This "faith" you speak of is not an understanding of this alleged relationship, but rather the belief itself, in the absence of evidence. Even absolute Zero is a limit we can only approach, and never reach! It exists only in the abstract.

Or perhaps I misunderstand you--please give several examples of these absolutes which you claim both A) exist and B) are not experienced by us.

No, all we can do is assess that these absolutes exist, at least to begin with. Why? Because something cannot be relative to nothing. It has to be relative to that which is even more relative or, absolute. In other words do we build our notions upon that which is relevant and exists or, non-existent in the least? And, once we understand this, perhaps we can begin to assess what the absoluteness of reality means?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

We speak of absolutes as if they really existed, but they don't, in reality. For example, you might say someone is "absolutely horrible", but I don't believe such a person exists.

So can you give me an example of an absolute which exists in reality? Don't try using "infinity" because infinity doesn't exist. It is just a mathmatical convention.

Well, it all depends on whether you wish to base reality on the existence of something or, the existence of nothing. And that in itself has to be absolute. Does something exist in the absolute sense? Or, does nothing exist in the absolute sense? In which case it brings up the absoluteness of the whole, of which everything is a relative part (in the absolute sense) thereof. In other words in order to understand the nature of absolutes, we need to understand it in the holistic sense.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Pardon me, but I have to say that makes absolutely no sense

What? It's not just me?

First, we don't base reality on the existence of something. Things are and that is reality.
Second, "nothing" does not exist. You can't say that "nothing exists in the absolute sense", it's a logical contradiction.
Third, when you speak of sense you are speaking about meaning.
And you can't give an absolute or relative meaning to the existence of things. That would be again a logical contradition, because the only reference you would have regarding the existence of things would be their "non-existence". Ant to talk about non-existent things has no meaning. It's simply the absence of existent things.

When you say that everything is a relative part of the absolute, you make two more mistakes:
"Everything" cannot be a part. Only "something" can.
To be relative to something means you must have a referential. When you say that something is on your left side, you don't think of an absolute "leftiness", you refer to your own position that, in this case, is the referential. And when you say that last winter was very cold you are making a relation to the winters of other years, not a relation with the absolute "coldness". You see, anything can be a referential.

Finally, a question: what do you mean by "absolute" since you talk about "absoluteness of the whole"?

No, the thing about reality is that it's an all or nothing proposition. Either it exists in the absolute sense and we have that something which we refer to as existence itself or, we would have absoutely nothing which, we would not even be able to fathom.

By the way, greetings graciano and welcome to the forums!

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

You talk about reality as if you were watching it from "the outside".
But reality is just the interaction between external stimulus and your senses and mind. Your senses and mind codify those external stimulus and that configuration is reality.

thank you for your greetings.

Reality is the whole ball of wax, including the way we react to it. By the way, everything which is external, must have an internal origin. In other words things exist from the inside out, and not the other way around.

You're welcome.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Iacchus,

You never give me a "toothy" smile like that. I'm jealous. Just kidding.