With the holidays approaching I wondered how atheists celebrate Christmas. Do they think of it as a holiday to get together with extended family and friends? I assume that atheists still observe the holiday in some manner in that they spend time with family and exchange gifts because there are usually other members within the family who are Christians. I also wondered how they feel about receiving Christmas cards from people who aren't aware that they are atheists. I would still appreciate a holiday greeting even if I were an atheist. This reminds me of a former supervisor who was afraid of offending anyone who might not be a Christian (Jews, atheists, Jehovah's Witnesses). She was a Christian herself but when it came time for the Bureau of Health to send Christmas cards to local nursing homes, she suggested writing "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" rather than "Merry Christmas". Even though I think this was a thoughtful gesture on her part to some extent, I wasn't really sure it was completely necessary as I feel that the nursing home residents would be happy to receive any kind of a greeting and would be pleased to think that someone was thinking of them and cared enough to take the time to send a Christmas card. Some people appreciate looking at the pretty, scenic pictures on Christmas cards and I think that the nurses are aware of the patients who might be offended by receiving a Christmas card. We don't know them personally but the caregivers of the nursing home residents have a general knowledge of their personal history and background so they could use their own judgment. Some of the patients don't have any visitors at all. Often it isn't just because they don't have any family, some family members don't care enough to visit them. I know this because my grandmother was in a nursing home and her roommate had three children who lived closeby and they rarely came near. My grandmother felt guilty because she had visitors every day. My mother, her two sisters and many of her grandchildren visited her on a regular basis. Hardly a day went by without visitors unless the weather didn't allow it. Anyway, to get back to what I was saying about Christmas cards, some of the employees had unused boxes of Christmas cards at home but because the majority of them had a "Merry Christmas" greeting, we couldn't use them so we had to go out and purchase cards that had a more generic greeting of "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings" not that we really minded. I also wondered whether atheists were offended when someone offered to pray for them when there is sickness or other troubles in the family although I do realize it is not always necessary to "offer" as Christians can pray in private without necessarily making an announcement. Do atheists thank them politely and let them know that their thoughts are appreciated? I suppose this would be easier than going through a long story about why they do not believe in God. Perhaps the response would be different depending on the individual. Sometimes I've sent people get well cards letting them know that they are in my thoughts and prayers without knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt as to their religious beliefs. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, are the holidays pretty much the same as far as the togetherness, decorations and gifts and all the other hoopla except God, Jesus and church aren't part of the package?

Christmas is a very materialistic holiday, so in that respect it makes a lot of materialistic Atheists happy.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

I agree with you 100% about the materialism. A lot of people weigh, measure and calculate their gifts to try and determine whether their gifts are as nice and expensive as someone else's. I think this is sickening. I don't enjoy all the hurrying around to find gifts. I'd much rather buy a gift when I happen to stumble on something that I think someone would like and give it to them then (you know--be more spontaneous about it) rather than feel like I'm knocking myself out trying to find something (anything) out of some imagined obligation just because it's Christmas. By the way, when are you going to buy my new earrings at Tiffany's? Just kidding.

I think it's a good reason for the family to get together and prepare a nice meal but, as for the commercialism, what's the difference between that and Jesus throwing all the money changers out of the temple? I personally don't expect people to buy me gifts. Why? Because I don't buy gifts for them.

In your dreams? Hey, you never know.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

We'd better be careful. We don't want a "Tiffany's" add to pop up and risk the chance that you're going to make them a bundle? Actually, the official name is Tiffany & Co. and there's a store location at:

PIONEER PLACE
330 Southwest Yamhill
Portland, Oregon 97204
503-221-5565

Store Hours:
Monday-Wednesday: 10-6
Thursday-Friday: 10-8
Saturday: 10-6
Sunday: 12-5
portland@tiffany.com

Gee, Iacchus...what about the non-materialistic atheists? Do they have to settle for seeing family, sharing love with friends, perhaps even giving more than they receive? Don't you pity them?

And what of the materialistic Christians? Do they get twice as much fun from christmas? Did christ die so that they could get a new DVD player and plasma screen TV?

Materialism and Atheism are completely independent, Iacchus. Your post, attempting as it does to equate the two, is dishonest and disgusting. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

Hey, if nothing else, we always have Santa Claus to support our cause.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Which cause? Materialistic christianity?

I usually enjoy the December holidays, whatever you call them, because it is a time for family to get together. And yes, I almost always buy gifts for my loved ones, so I guess that makes me a materialistic atheist, even though I spend a great deal more on gifts than the rest of my family. I do it because I can afford it, and my family, especially the children, look forward to it so much.

Most of my family is Christian (there's one Wiccan) and a number of them are aware of my atheism. But this rarely comes up. We're too busy sharing love to worry about labels.

Oddly, my Wiccan relative is the one who is most careful not to buy holiday cards with specific references to any religion. Her religion is so persecuted by Christians, she doesn't wish to draw attention to it. Only a few of the family even know about it. Maybe not surprisingly, she finds that the atheist of the family is the only one she really trusts with the details of her beliefs. Many of my family are real bible-thumpers, and she fears they would spurn her because of her beliefs.

But it is true that I usually buy non-religious cards simply because I don't want to buy a bunch of different cards for the different people on my list. As often as not, I make my own cards.

My own philosophy is that you give gifts whenever you feel like it (and I do), not because of what day it is on the calendar. But I cannot change how the world behaves, so I choose to play by the rules my society has set out. Shrill atheists are not much in favor with anybody, including other atheists.

I haven't really addressed anyone's comments here, I just thought I'd share what it is like to be an atheist around the "holidays".

I don't know, I don't buy presents for other people. I don't even waste my money on greeting cards, although I will help my mother cook dinner or something, but that's about it. The whole thing's a big joke, primarily because of all the money that's involved.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

I do buy for other people, and more importantly I make things specifically for special people. I often give them on the solstice, but also on christmas as well.

Is giving to people you love "materialistic"?

Perhaps you should ask a materialist? Love is just another one of your surreal emotions isn't it?

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

In my family, nobody expects presents from people who are broke, or if they do, they expect them to be personal things. I can't count the number of times, back in my impoverished days, that I gave poems as presents. Or sometimes for my mom, I would give her "coupons" saying "good for one room cleaning" or "good for one car wash". Gifts need not be all about money.

Today I bought some gifts at a little toy store that had unusual things. Kites, tops and other quirky things. They were very cheap, but I thought how much the kids I give them to will like them. That really gives me a warm feeling.

Helping cook dinner is not a gift, especially if you plan to eat some of that dinner. That's just sharing your part of the chores.

As for cards, you can make those yourself too, especially if you are any good at computer stuff. Then all you have is the cost of the stamps.

I really do wish you had someone you loved enough to want to give gifts to, Iacchy. It makes me sad that you don't seem to. I think Peggy would like something, even if it's not from Tiffany. Maybe you could dedicate a chapter of your next book to her.

LOL...Iacchus, you are such a wit...it was you who first brought up materialism in this thread--are you saying you were talking out of your...hat? You were so quick to speak of materialism...why not now? Do you admit that your previous talk was merely an attempt to insult?

And recall, I am the one who said that emotions fit nicely into a deterministic world-view...so why exactly would you say that I would call them surreal? Emotions are very adaptive--even Darwin wrote about them, so this is not exactly new..

Iacchus, I have disagreed with you in the past, but I did not, until recently, believe that you were being intentionally dishonest. I wish I still felt that way.

How can an illusion be anything other than just that? You shouldn't expect so much from that which is not real.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Call me an optimist, but I always expect honesty. I am occasionally dissappointed to find otherwise, but I still prefer the expectation of honesty as an opening position.

As for the "illusion" and "not real" parts....I have lost track--is this your position, or are you once again trying to tell me mine? For my part, I assume you are real, and I recognise that this is an assumption on my part.

Here we go on to another off topic byway, so I apologize to Peggy, who started this thread out of a genuine curiosity about what it felt like to be an atheist. I'll try to get us back there Peggy, if Iacchus will stop diverting.
I guess I don't have any experience with this. I am told it happens, especially in wealthy families, but I think it is exaggerated. Yes, there are a few very greedy people out there. I don't believe they are the majority.
Yeah, that is a bit of a wrench, but I can usually get over that irritation by thinking of the faces of my loved ones when they open their gifts. There is something very special about the gift-opening ceremony, whether you do it on Christmas or not, and I confess that I like it. I remember as a child how I looked forward to it, and I want other kids (and adults) to feel that same thrill of expectation. Maybe that is materialistic of me. If so, then I accept the label. It feels like love to me.

But I find it helps if you think about others all throughout the year. Then if you find a gift, be it in July or January, you can get it for them. Give it to them right away, or save it for Christmas if you hate last-minute shopping.

I don't deny that exchanging gifts can be rewarding for both the recipient and the giver but what bothers me is when people go into debt and run up hundreds or even thousands of dollars on their credit cards when they really can't afford to go into debt. They spend the rest of the year trying to get caught up on their payments. Many times people could use that money for more important needs like groceries, clothing, heating oil, utility bills, taxes, house and car insurance and things that need to be repaired around the house. Many less fortunate people are barely able to keep up with their personal needs. Often they have very little money to spare for necessary things like eyeglasses, hearing aids and prescription drugs. I got rid of my credit cards recently so I won't be able to fall back on them this year to buy gifts. I plan to buy gifts for my parents but that's all I'll be able to manage this year. I've got to buckle down and learn how to set aside some money for emergencies (something I've never been very good at). I agree with your comment about keeping your eye out for things during the year. This is a good idea and then I wouldn't be so bogged down at the last minute. I hate the crowds and having to wait in line during the Christmas season. No, I don't think you're being materialistic just because you enjoy gifts. I imagine everyone likes surprises (that's the "kid" in us).

It's all the consumerism that has nothing to do with Christmas that bothers me.

What you've mistaken for love here is very superficial. This is why we have all this contrived nonsense on TV to get us to buy things. Spend, spend, spend! It's obviously more a matter of "preconditioning" than anything else.

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So when the body dies, and consciousness departs, where do "we" go? ... Off to define another "reality" perhaps?

Christmas means different things to different people (even atheists ). If you don't want to engage in consumerism, then don't. You can scarcely fault businesses for trying to make money though. That's what businesses are supposed to do. I'm perfectly capable of ignoring their ads and throwing away catalogues I don't want.

But then, I don't get annoyed if a salesperson asks if they can help me.
If the only way I ever showed my love was by buying things, then you might have a point, but it is not. Although, for someone who lives far away, sometimes that is one of the few things you can do to show someone you are thinking about them. Calling and writing work too. Do you do a lot of that, Iacchy? If not, then I contest your worthiness to call my kind of love "superficial". I love and have loved very deeply.
We are all creatures of our society. My "preconditioning" tells me that Christmas is a time of giving. I still believe that, even though I no longer believe in Christ. It is not up to you to tell me that the way I choose to celebrate is wrong. Didn't Charles Dickens write a story about you?